Curse

Shayne Hawke · Feb 10, 2010, 11:12 PM // 23:12

I've got two builds that I use in conjunction with Discord teams, not so that I can do a great deal of damage myself, but so I can allow my heroes to throw out Discord as much as they can. I realize they do more DPS than I do, so I may as well accelerate what they do then try and go with my own thing.

AP, Savage, D-Shot, Poison Tip Signet, Body Shot, "YMLaD!", "FH!", Sunspear RB Signet. 2 Wilderness, 8+1+1 Exp, 10+1 Marks, 12 Deadly. Except, I find myself rather short on energy if I'm not using cons to increase my energy max, or if I'm not wielding a staff. If I choose to opt out of using a bow, I can use this:

AP, "YMLaD!", Signet of Deadly Corruption, "FH!", Sadist's Signet, Serpent's Quickness, Pestilence, Sunspear RB Signet. 6+1+1 Exp, 11+1 Wilderness, 12 Deadly. Probably not optimal, the Expertise in this situation is rather unnecessary. But pretty much, throw up the conditions and hex you need on your target, and spam it to death. Conditions can spread because Disease gets around, and then you just throw AP on your next target and your heroes continue to give 'em hell.

If I go back to the bow and want straight DPS (which is absolutely never ever ever), I run the following: Needling Shot, "IAtS!", D-Shot, RtW, Expert's Dexterity, Asuran Scan, "YMLaD!", Death Pact Signet. 12+1+2 Exp, 12+1 Marks, 3 Resto. Zealous bow string ftw, YMLaD is really only in there so that I can apply both a condition and hex for my Discord heroes.

And of course, then there's BHA, which there is absolutely nothing bad about.

doomfodder · Feb 10, 2010, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Zealous hormbow 15^50 inscr

Glass Arrows
Aura Scan
I Am the strongest
Triple shot
Dual shot
Sloth Hunters shot
any 2 skills (res & w/D or TU or whatever utility U want to bring for E Management)

This build WILL kill almost anything that doesn't block or heal in 2-3 bow attacks. If any support character in your party puts GDW or any other buff on you, your triple shot WILL do 450+ when you are prepped, shouted, and level 30 foe is hexed with Asura Scan.

Test it on Master of Damage...

Zodiac Meteor · Feb 11, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

All I know is, if my fire elementalist fights as ranger in RA, I lose. Their attacks with their interrupts are strong, not spike damage but pressure.

I suppose the poster never ran into a barbed arrows + Poison Arrow combo. As a monk with the entire team suffering -7 degen and cover conditions it really pisses me off to out heal the pressure.

When I see a ranger with barrage in PvE, I cheer. Mainly because my main ER infuse elementalist has a maxed out Delver title and Great Dwarf Weapon on her bar. Nothing nothing compares to the pwn when Aiden knockdowns 4 Destroyers at once with his barrage.

Charlotte the Harlot · Feb 11, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Barrage is very usable without a tank, pets ,minions or just about any frontline will naturally group them enough to make barrage worthwhile. The KD ability of GDW barrage should not be underestimated the group kd is deadly and also helps protect your team. Triple Shot (can be followed with savage) with GDW is a nearly guaranteed KD that will come close to killing a lot of enemies. Barrage is only bad without orders, ebsoh, or GDW; if two of the three are present a barrage ranger's total DPS is probably going to be higher than the any single warrior or assassin's DPS. Most 8 man areas will have enough enemies to fairly frequently find clusters of 3 or more to barrage.

The Barrage bar has more free space and energy for utility than most frontline bars as well. Pure was li ming, EBSoH, SY, pet skills, I am the strongest, traps, and a hell of a lot other skills can comfortably fit the 3-4 extra spots on a barrager.

Enraged Lunge pack hunters can do about 90 DPS on their own and trigger barbs and MoP more than any other characters.

I also feel that interrupts are underrated, having savage and d shot for stuff like meteor shower and wurm bile is extremely useful but any skill being interrupted will benefit the team.

maxxfury · Feb 11, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Oh hai!

So, yeah, thread, funtimes!

Sadly ive already resigned my self to a pretty piss poor comparative damage output on ranger for most vanq style situations ect (NOT counting tanky spanky barrage ect) so yeah, wanting to make the best out of the situation when class locked :P

My reasoning for taking melee with a pet for dps over bow was a quicker attack speed, broken stuff like jag+fox+db, two sets of buffs (soh, gdw, double procs from orders, ebsoh ect due to the pet)
Add the fact that the only real fun bar (personally fun) for bow spiking/dps was prep/wager+pene+sundering and that got spanked

Ive run dagger bars, scythe bars, axe bars, hammer bars, sword bars all mostly 'faking' the 2ndry with a ranger twist abusing exp, and ofc bow damage...for actual 'effective in game' outputs (not MoD) i tend to favour daggers+pet as that feels like its giving the best results....Quick chains, compressed damage, lots of buff procs (aka lots of damage packets produced)

*sigh i guess i just want the aftercast taken of pene/sunder in a pve split :P

**i seems to have picked badly in this 'meta' for pve mains, Mes, Monk and Ranger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

it is not (like maxxfury suggests) a question of melee having better buffs, so much as a question of melee maybe being able to generate more packet

My wording was as usual :P lacking

, that basically what i was hitting at, melee seem to be able to make better use of the buffs, and get more procs from them.

Pugs Not Drugs · Feb 11, 2010, 01:19 AM // 01:19

pets arent as useful as they might seem. anet buffed their skills enough, but they still lack in ai, and have pretty terrible dps. if i were you, i would save the 1-2 skill slots and attribute points

Chthon · Feb 11, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Btw: According to the official wiki Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot activate in 3/8 seconds, so even with 33% IAS they activate ~78% faster than normal bow attacks.

I'm pretty sure the wiki is wrong then. (It wouldn't be the first time.) Take them out to Isle of the Nameless and try them. Sure as hell doesn't look like 3/8 to me.

I'll go back and take a closer look just to be sure. Pen+Sunder+Needle should activate faster than a 3sec spell if that's true, and slower if it's false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Most of you here are belating the obvious and then posting a bad build.

I really hate putting myself in a position where I have to go around saying "your build is crap," but I seem to have bumbled into it nonetheless. Everyone, prepare yourselves for defensive flames from offended people!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Despite the fact that everyone complains that Penetrating Attack/Sundering Shot were nerfed to hell I haven't yet seen a ranger bow build that deals more damage than this or a similar build.

Barrage+IAS+EBSoH + Friend w/ GDW + Friend w/ Orders. Only needs to hit slightly more than 2 foes per shot on average to beat that build (with the same buffs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Zealous hormbow 15^50 inscr

Glass Arrows
Aura Scan
I Am the strongest
Triple shot
Dual shot
Sloth Hunters shot
any 2 skills (res & w/D or TU or whatever utility U want to bring for E Management)

This build WILL kill almost anything that doesn't block or heal in 2-3 bow attacks.

And then it will sit there autoattacking like a tard until its skills recharge. Without some way of dealing with the awful recharge on Triple and Dual (and IAtS and Sloth for that matter) this build stinks at DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

My reasoning for taking melee with a pet for dps over bow was a quicker attack speed, broken stuff like jag+fox+db, two sets of buffs (soh, gdw, double procs from orders, ebsoh ect due to the pet)
Add the fact that the only real fun bar (personally fun) for bow spiking/dps was prep/wager+pene+sundering and that got spanked

Ive run dagger bars, scythe bars, axe bars, hammer bars, sword bars all mostly 'faking' the 2ndry with a ranger twist abusing exp, and ofc bow damage...for actual 'effective in game' outputs (not MoD) i tend to favour daggers+pet as that feels like its giving the best results....Quick chains, compressed damage, lots of buff procs (aka lots of damage packets produced)

If there's a way to get solid DPS (as compared to Barrage) on a melee Ranger, you're probably right on the money.

(1 nitpick though: Pet can't proc orders. Just SoH and GDW.)

Moonlit Azure · Feb 11, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

lol,u prob never used a turret build,being able to take down a healer in the backline in a matter of 3-5 shots in a period of like 2-3 secs without having to rush through their frontline,being able to pick any key targets in the area without having to chase them around,etc.
Also you can make a much better use of splinter since you have complete control over your targets without sacrificing time and DPS to run towards the best clumped tagets.

If those builds are BAD,then please show a better one or stop posting.

Are you stupid enough to think the healer doesn't have a stance? Turret builds aren't even that great. A turret build's focus is damage, right? But rangers aren't the best damage dealers;

Quote:

First, understand that rangers suck at DPS. Sad, but true. Almost every other class has builds that out-DPS anything you can put on a ranger. (I'm sure this greatly offends casual-player ranger-lovers, as well as a particular individual who thinks that 3 * 1.8 = 6. It is true nonetheless.) So, before you even start, understand that the ONLY reason to even bother is because you've already made up your mind that you're going to use a ranger and do the best you can under that handicap. If you're looking for optimal, the best solution is to use another class.

and also, I can and will run from ranger attacks easily. Hell, I can even run behind a rock and make you useless instantly. While with a warrior or an assassin, I can knock your ass down and then beat the crap out of you.

Seriously, I've run my ranger for years, a lot longer than you apparently. Keep on trollin' bro.

maxxfury · Feb 11, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Even with the +50~damage per hit from the buffs alone the pet would have goin off every attack? bein a touch mindless is acceptable (light micro of a pet is cake tbh) as its an extra set of procs for broken buffs.

Also with a dagger chain, bein what 3-4 skills, a couple of pve skills and charm animal, and losing a couple of att points to put into BM for a whole other set of damage packets (+soh, gdw, orders, ebsoh and mop, barbs, daze procs)

Now a dagger bar without a pet, with the same buffs (+soh, gdw, orders, ebsoh and mop, barbs), can it reach the same outputs? MoD says no, as does my in game exp more importantly... or im wrong on how many packets of damage and the output it gives you?

You trade a skill slot for charmed and a couple of points from exp for a 10 spec in Bm, for a whole extra set of buff procs, really isnt that big a trade off when you only need 3 attack skills .

But what do i know eh? im the one who asked the Question to begin with that started the thread *shrugs*

Edit*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(1 nitpick though: Pet can't proc orders. Just SoH and GDW.

Gah...threw my numbers slightly with that! brain fart! points in posts still stand for the most part :P

BaconSoda · Feb 11, 2010, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Well, I have two things to say...

First, I think that Rangers were rather conceived as more of a utility in PvE, like Mesmers in PvP. If I wanted someone to do a boatload of damage, I'd probably take an Elementalist running Searing Flames or whatever the hot thing is right now, but if I wanted someone to deal some damage and daze/interupt those pesky healers or shutdown that awful Elementalist Boss, I'd probably take a Ranger or a Mesmer. Sure, you can write things out on paper all you want, but at the end of the day, Rangers provide some utility that can be priceless in the right scenario.

Furthermore on this point, Rangers have the longest range in the game which gets multiplied by elevation. I know not many people take this into consideration, but, that's damage that can be done before the rest of the fight happens. I know you can't use some fancy algebra on that, but in the aforementioned right scenario, Rangers can be priceless.

But, of course, that's all just theory. I guess I need to run out and make a video out of something, don't I?

Video or not, fact of the matter is that Rangers don't do any better DPS than any other profession, and so they use their other advantages to be useful. It's like this is a game about skill and strategy or something and in this game you can choose whatever skills and strategies you want.

maxxfury · Feb 11, 2010, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

First, I think that Rangers were rather conceived as more of a utility in PvE, like Mesmers in PvP. If I wanted someone to do a boatload of damage, I'd probably take an Elementalist running Searing Flames or whatever the hot thing is right now, but if I wanted someone to deal some damage and daze/interupt those pesky healers or shutdown that awful Elementalist Boss, I'd probably take a Ranger or a Mesmer. Sure, you can write things out on paper all you want, but at the end of the day, Rangers provide some utility that can be priceless in the right scenario..

Sadly power creep decrees that brute force makes the need for the utility of a mes or a ranger to be marginal, and for the most part unneeded in the pve steamroller that the power creep has created. Its kinda sad that the scenario you speak of is usually just a distant echo..

Especially when anyone can pack technobabble now and let spears fly and minions nibble away to neuter casters or just PI the boss and let it instabgib itself

and cast away with aegis, reckless or enfeebling as a passive way to laugh at phys.

Ugh · Feb 11, 2010, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

First, I think that Rangers were rather conceived as more of a utility in PvE, like Mesmers in PvP.

Yep. But, while they're a class designed for utility, they were given no viable utility skills (for PvE). It's sad, really.

Quote:

if I wanted someone to deal some damage and daze/interupt those pesky healers or shutdown that awful Elementalist Boss, I'd probably take a Ranger or a Mesmer. Sure, you can write things out on paper all you want, but at the end of the day, Rangers provide some utility that can be priceless in the right scenario.

Unfortunately, "the right scenario" is quite rare; BHA is outperformed by either Technobabble or PI most of the time. And, besides dazing, there's pretty much no utility left that a ranger can provide that's viable in PvE (condition spreading = no, interruption = inferior to pure damage).

Natural Rituals could have been a nice way for rangers to be useful, but they take ridiculously long to set up, die easily, and 97% of them are useless. Also, most rituals require investment in Wilderness Survival, which is probably the second most laughable attribute line in GW (it has a grand total of 3 skills that I will acknowledge as good, a few okayish ones, and the rest are shit).

Quote:

...Hell, I can even run behind a rock and make you useless instantly. While with a warrior or an assassin, I can knock your ass down and then beat the crap out of you.

Then, a ranger could either (a) run around the rock and shoot you more or (b) leave you hiding behind the rock and start shooting something else, knowing that you're actually only making yourself useless.

Also, pretty much every fight I've ever had with a sin has gone like this:
*I interrupt Critical Defenses if they have it*
*Sin shadowsteps*
*I use either NS or LR so they can't complete a chain*
*I degen them to death and interrupt Shadow Refuge*
*They try to run away but they still die*

Any semi-competent ranger will beat a sin everytime. And if the ranger has either Cripshot or Mshot, they'll beat a warrior 1v1 by kiting. If they have BA or something, they'll win if they get lucky blocks or the warrior sucks.

Moonlit Azure · Feb 11, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Also, pretty much every fight I've ever had with a sin has gone like this:
*I interrupt Critical Defenses if they have it*
*Sin shadowsteps*
*I use either NS or LR so they can't complete a chain*
*I degen them to death and interrupt Shadow Refuge*
*They try to run away but they still die*

Any semi-competent ranger will beat a sin everytime. And if the ranger has either Cripshot or Mshot, they'll beat a warrior 1v1 by kiting. If they have BA or something, they'll win if they get lucky blocks or the warrior sucks.

I was talking from the point of the healer Betrayer of Winds was speaking of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betrayer of Wind

lol,u prob never used a turret build,being able to take down a healer in the backline in a matter of 3-5 shots in a period of like 2-3 secs

I'll use my ritualist running a generic xinrae's bar for this scenario. (xinrae, WoW, BwM, mend body and soul, spirit light, etc)

Heres what happens when a ranger comes up to me:
*Spam both interrupts at me
*One attack is absorbed by xinrae, ranger takes damage
*Drop BwM at his feet, blinded but still continues to spam attacks at me
*Switch to spamming xinrae's constantly on myself, I continue to help my team
*ranger eventually kills himself/nearly dies and is quickly picked off

Seriously, I've played this stupid before, and many people (including rangers) have killed themselves just because they refused to stop attacking.

Or if I was playing a monk:

*Ranger engages me
*Cast stance
*Ranger realizes hes not getting anywhere, runs away

If he was running cripshot then I might die.

And if I was playing a Ranger against a Warrior or Assassin, of course I would win.

Betrayer of Wind · Feb 11, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Are you stupid enough to think the healer doesn't have a stance? Turret builds aren't even that great. A turret build's focus is damage, right? But rangers aren't the best damage dealers

You clearly didn't get the point that this is about PvE, not PvP. Ranger's DPS in pvp got nerfed to hell, i thought everyone would get it now geez.

Perfected Shadow · Feb 11, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

There I finally got around to trying this BM dagger build I posted a while ago. How does it compare to other dps classes? idk I can't be bothered to find MoD screens.

Enraged Lunge also adds deep wound damage which is not counted by the MoD.
Also I was lazy and probably not have been spamming with optimal efficiency.

FoxBat · Feb 11, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm pretty sure the wiki is wrong then. (It wouldn't be the first time.) Take them out to Isle of the Nameless and try them. Sure as hell doesn't look like 3/8 to me.

Wiki here is equating "animation time" = time until arrow fires. Basically all attack animations have two halves, first half before attack executes, second half after. Savage has 1/2 but arrow leaves the bow at 1/4, melshot says 1 but arrow leaves at 1/2, etc. For non-aftercast anims, you can move around ("quarterstep") in this latter half, but it still delays you from starting the next attack animation.

Desert Rose · Feb 11, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Barrage+IAS+EBSoH + Friend w/ GDW + Friend w/ Orders. Only needs to hit slightly more than 2 foes per shot on average to beat that build (with the same buffs).

Yes, Barrage is strong; if you have another human player(s) that plays the appropriate class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Seriously, I've run my ranger for years, a lot longer than you apparently.

Just because someone played class X for y years doesn't meant he has gained any knowledge about class X.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

Video or not, fact of the matter is that Rangers don't do any better DPS than any other profession, and so they use their other advantages to be useful.

Well, the other advantages of a ranger are not very useful in PvE; but imo that's more a problem with PvE than rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Wiki here is equating "animation time" = time until arrow fires. Basically all attack animations have two halves, first half before attack executes, second half after. Savage has 1/2 but arrow leaves the bow at 1/4, melshot says 1 but arrow leaves at 1/2, etc. For non-aftercast anims, you can move around ("quarterstep") in this latter half, but it still delays you from starting the next attack animation.

Is the entire attack animation affected by an IAS or only the first part? I assume it's the entire animation.

But it would explain why the damage numbers of both skills haven't changed much:
Before update:
Penetrating Attack --> 1 attack every second without IAS, ~1,5 attack every second with 33% IAS
After update:
Penetrating Attack --> ~1,14 attacks every second without IAS, ~1,33 attacks every second with 33% IAS

Moonlit Azure · Feb 11, 2010, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Natural Rituals could have been a nice way for rangers to be useful, but they take ridiculously long to set up, die easily, and 97% of them are useless. Also, most rituals require investment in Wilderness Survival, which is probably the second most laughable attribute line in GW (it has a grand total of 3 skills that I will acknowledge as good, a few okayish ones, and the rest are shit).

I love nature rituals, they're one of my favorite parts of a ranger, but I can never find a good use for them. I think they should ditch the spirit idea and imbue the caster with the effect and he then broadcasts the effect over the battlefield. It would solve most of the problems with nature spirits already.

A lot of ranger skills need overhauls. I could take 20 skills from the ranger's set of skills and ditch the others with no loss. A lot of skills made just dont serve a useful purpose.

Chthon · Feb 11, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Yep. But, while they're a class designed for utility, they were given no viable utility skills (for PvE). It's sad, really.

That's a good way of putting it.

Quote:

Unfortunately, "the right scenario" is quite rare; BHA is outperformed by either Technobabble or PI most of the time. And, besides dazing, there's pretty much no utility left that a ranger can provide that's viable in PvE (condition spreading = no, interruption = inferior to pure damage).

I've gone over BHA vs. Technobabble before. BHA's advantages are (1) that it can be fired preemptively from outside aggro range and (2) that it lasts a long time. It's an anti-boss skill basically. If you don't care that the target gets off 1 spell before you shut it down and you're sure you can kill it in 5 sec, then use Technobabble instead.

Without contextual information, we cannot say that disruption is inferior or superior to pure damage. Disruption is a funny mechanic. It takes on the properties of the opposite mechanic of the one that it disrupts. Disrupting WoH is the same as dealing damage equal to what WoH would have healed. Disrupting Aegis is the same as dealing damage equal to what Aegis would have prevented. Disrupting RI is the same as preventing damage equal to what RI would have done. Whether disruption is a better deal than just doing damage/damage prevention straight up depends on the relative potency of your straight up skills versus the monsters' disrupted skills.

The real problem with interruption is that it's hugely unreliable. The HM activation speed buff makes plain old interruption borderline impossible on anything <=1sec. That's why alternative forms of disruption, the preemptive ones -- dazed and knockdown -- have grown so popular.

HellScreamS · Feb 11, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

erm ranger? dps? obviously you haven't tried this:

expert's dexterity
read the wind
keen arrow
needling shot
sloth hunter's shot
asuran scan
by ural's hammer
I am the strongest

marksmanship 16
expertise 12+1

gogo tons of dps...